ST: "Polytechnic grads put squeeze on university places"

last SG · 2008-03-16T13:11:45+00:00

50 out of 200-300 for an undergraduate course = "best of the best"?! actually i feel dat local degree r degrading as years to come by becos nowaday universi...

eagle SG

You've probably answered your own question.

This equal opportunity could possibly equate to the quota stipulated by the universities for their undergraduate programmes. So technically, everyone could have this equal opportunity of entering universities.

True, but what i meant to Mister Gedanken is the brutal truth that not everyone who have demonstrated their ability to study are allow this 'equal opportunity' in a sense, because there is this quota.

Everyone is competing for this limited number of vacancies, henceforth, the survival of the fittest.

As such, am i wrong to say that this quota is a limiting factor dictated by the people up there to ensure that only the best of the best are allowed into the universities?

As such, am i wrong to conclude that the existence of such a limiting factor, are solely not because there is no land space in singapore, nor there are not enough taxpayers money, nor whatsoever other less credible reasons, but the fact that the authorities are in fact, governing the number of people receiving tertiary education (i mean Bachelor and above) such that the bell-curve ratio would not be upset to a point where such qualifications would be deem worthless?

And that's why i said, if any tom, dick and harry can enter universities, who does the blue collar jobs? The degrees will become worthless and everyone would be the same.

But you are already contradicting yourself.

First, you state that "You're naive enough to believe that the world allows equal opportunities?" and ended your post with "Now tell me, does the world gives them equal opportunities?"

Then you tell us "So technically, everyone could have this equal opportunity of entering universities."

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

The main question here is, are you considering this 'equal opportunity' given to people from the moment they are born or from the moment they are applying for it?

Also, I fail to see how the original phrase of "demonstrated ability" by Gedanken is to be meant solely on academic ability, which is clearly the only ability you are concerned about right now.

FirePig SG

university education for poly grads is just a waste of time unless the poly grads want to go for honours and higher. The normal bachelor degree is just slightly better than the diploma. It is mostly those good honours students who will get the better high end jobs. If you want to waste 3 years of working opportunities + pay more than 18k of school fees + miscellaneous fees in addition of your 15k poly school fees and have a debt of more than $30k at the end of your course, go ahead.

AugoeideS SG

But you are already contradicting yourself.

First, you state that "You're naive enough to believe that the world allows equal opportunities?" and ended your post with "Now tell me, does the world gives them equal opportunities?"

Then you tell us "So technically, everyone could have this equal opportunity of entering universities."

Aren't you contradicting yourself?

The main question here is, are you considering this 'equal opportunity' given to people from the moment they are born or from the moment they are applying for it?

Also, I fail to see how the original phrase of "demonstrated ability" by Gedanken is to be meant solely on academic ability, which is clearly the only ability you are concerned about right now.

Sorry to disappoint you. What i've meant by "so technically, everyone could have this equal opportunity of entering universities" is that on the book, or rather, in theory, it seems like everyone can have this equal opportunity of entering universities. But practically do you see that happening? That is why i said, although the world implies equal opportunities, do you believe it? I am not contradicting myself, you have just got to read everything and not nitpicking sentence by sentence just to refute me, really.

As to your second question, i have already defined what can be an exemplary of an equal opportunity.

Intuitively speaking, it is not too far of a connection between demonstrated ability and academic ability when we are talking about academic instutitions. If you think that what Mister Gedanken meant was extra-curricular, or non-academic merits or that sort, then, let me ask you a question, what is the primary reason for people who wants to enter academic institutions like NTU and NUS?

If demonstrated ability does not refer to academics in this context, then?

stupidissmart SG

To be frank, do u think it is good for everyone to be degree holders ? If everyone becomes degree holders, then degree means nothing at all. In tis world we need people to work as degree holder but we also need more people doing other jobs like army, police, technicians etc...

purpledragon84 SG

im certain there's no % cap on the number of foreign students in NTU.. simply by observation..

the irony of it all la seriously.. our own students cannot go into local uni, not becoz they are incapable, but becoz the govt is asking ppl to come from overseas to study at our universities.. and then amidst all this one chinese scholar tio a leukemia and those who do not donate are accused of being cold blooded.. seriously.. where is the singapore where i used to hear ah bengs playing loud music at the back of the bus and in the mrt? i only hear banglas paa laall praaprppalla-ing and china ppl speaking mandarin which i as a chinese cannot comprehend..

and b4 some pros come and tell me "hey dude if u aren't capable enuf dun blame others", i want to highlight that this is not even about capability.. this is about having a place to stand in the mrt without banglas and china ppl pushing me..

eagle SG

As to your second question, i have already defined what can be an exemplary of an equal opportunity.

If demonstrated ability does not refer to academics in this context, then?

Opportunities are given from young. As you have mentioned it yourself, there are limited vacanies. The selection process starts way before your application for university. By the time you can complain that there isn't equal opportunities in entering a university, it merely means you have wasted many other opportunties before hand. We are not talking about the minorities that are more equal than others; we are talking about commoners like the rest of us. Do you seriously believe that you had less or more of a chance to enter a university than me the moment you were born?

What I want to tell you is, this is not a case of 'equal opportunity' at all, but rather, a case of elitism, of which I'm standing on neutral grounds.

By the way, NUS and NTU do take into account CCA records; it is a bonus to entry. In addition, another form of ability is the ability to pull strings; there are definitely people who did it successfully and entered an academic institution.

As in your example

Then, let me give you an example. I have friends that scored 16-17pointers for their L1R4, but failed Mathematics and went into ITE, while people who fare badly for their aggregate averaging around 22-26pointers for their L1R4 are allowed into Polytechnic, what gives?

it merely means that the 22-26pointers who entered had more ability to enter.

Let's say you apply for Stanford or Cornell university with perfect A level grades, and you do not get in. However, someone with lousier A level grades got in. Why? Their application process includes teacher's recommendations and essays on describing yourself. Academic ability alone does not guarantee you a place; many other factors count.

eagle SG

im certain there's no % cap on the number of foreign students in NTU.. simply by observation..

banglas mostly sit at the back of lorries or pickups to go to work

me and my army frens call it the bangla tonner

AugoeideS SG

As in your example

it merely means that the 22-26pointers who entered had more ability to enter.

The part about NUS/NTU considering CCA records are under 'Discretionary Admission Scheme', an optional scheme for those who have excellent CCA records to boost their chances of admission, but primary criteria are academic results, nonetheless. Afterall, you're entering an academic institution, what else would they look for as the primary criteria?

I do not understand what you're trying to bring across in this statement: "As in your example

it merely means that the 22-26pointers who entered had more ability to enter."

To me, it seems like you are saying that 22-26 pointers have more potential to enter something (lol i don't know what) compared to 16-17 pointers.

I know, other factors count too, but ultimately your academic results is still the primary criteria, like it or not. It is a moot point.

And in regards to your example, it is, still afterall an example. Perceived outcome of admissionary decision by Cornell or Stanford does not equate to the actuality of the outcome. This, neither you nor i can conclude unless we have substantial empirical evidence.

eagle SG

I do not understand what you're trying to bring across in this statement: "As in your example

it merely means that the 22-26pointers who entered had more ability to enter."

To me, it seems like you are saying that 22-26 pointers have more potential to enter something (lol i don't know what) compared to 16-17 pointers.

I know, other factors count too, but ultimately your academic results is still the primary criteria, like it or not. It is a moot point.

22-26 pointers have more potential to enter is totally different from them having more ability. Anyway that's beside the point.

Yes, academic results is the primary criteria. But you are still missing the point that 'equal opportunity' still exists for most of us (not talking about white horses); everyone has the same opportunity to do well and go into a prestigious university. Whether they make use of that opportunity is a different matter.

With regards to your last paragraph, do you understand how their application process works? Have you ever applied for admission to these universities? Perhaps if you have applied before, you would understand that academic qualifications is, although a main criteria, not a guarantee against those with lower qualifications than you. This is my main point.

bryanw SG

lao ying is trying to say while academic results should be of foremost concern for uni entry, universities also look into other factors like community involement, ECA awards, leadership qualities etc. cos universities want to create a healthy blend of undergraduates of various backgrounds to create diversity so each one can learn from one another.

btw hi yi ge.

eagle SG

btw hi yi ge.

hi!

thanks for helping me to summarize.

bryanw SG

no prob yi ge. now imo employers dont just look at academic qualifications. they want "all rounders". n now more uni grads compared to the past. university is another institute of higher learning. every university wants to stand apart from each other. what sets their grads apart from the rest. the ads by the local unis say it all.

AugoeideS SG

22-26 pointers have more potential to enter is totally different from them having more ability. Anyway that's beside the point.

I sometimes do wonder how does it digress till this point? I'm not even talking about matters on holistic assessment when it comes to university admission in the beginning!

I know what you're saying - so let's spare the reiteration. And no, let's not digress any further. Stating Stanford and Cornell's admission criteria to bring forth the point that other non-academic merits are important is not the point - because we are still talking about local university admissions.

As much as i loath repeating myself, yes, what you're saying is true, however, they're also known collectively under "Discretionary Admission Scheme" here in Singapore Public Universities. I'm talking about local context, because this thread is about local universities admission, so let's not bring in foreign universities. 10% vacancy are set aside for applicants under this scheme. So what does this tells you?

I know what you're trying to say, but please be reminded that i am talking about the local context. So let's not deviate so much from the original topic.

As a matter of fact, stupidissmart had already succinctly summarized what i am trying to bring forth in the first place. So let's not engage in a cyclic debate on academics vs non-academics for university admission.

eagle SG

I sometimes do wonder how does it digress till this point? I'm not even talking about matters on holistic assessment when it comes to university admission in the beginning!

I know what you're trying to say, but please be reminded that i am talking about the local context. So let's not deviate so much from the original topic.

okok, Discretionary Admission Scheme wasn't in my time. That time, CCA scores were included as bonus in the overall calculations of results. Seems like admission criteria has taken a step backwards. It's like removing mother tongue as a criteria for admission. Yucks.

Still, my main point is that your usage of the term 'equal opportunity' is inappropriate.

AugoeideS SG

Still, my main point is that your usage of the term 'equal opportunity' is inappropriate.

Alright, seems like i cannot find an appropriate word to bring forth my point. My bad. haha. Can't blame someone who's been drinking quite a bit before replying to Mister Gedanken (pretty infuriating too, he wants me to be an aspiring environmental hygiene manager!)

Yes, it seems so. Not that i wants it to be that way, but to me, it just seems that they are really 'discretely' shoving CCAs off the consideration. Can't really do anything about it.

eagle SG

Yes, it seems so. Not that i wants it to be that way, but to me, it just seems that they are really 'discretely' shoving CCAs off the consideration. Can't really do anything about it.

Actually I think you want to mean elitism. Anyway I'm also half asleep cuz too much work to rush...

Hello Kitty SG

coz dragon year?

Gedanken SG

Conversely, a person who fare badly for Maths but scored well for English and Sciences can still do well in courses that do not requires advanced or intricate understanding of mathematical skills. If there's no mathematics-related module in the course curriculum, how else can that weakness adversely affects one's result in polytechnic for that matter?

Uhh, dickhead, how is that at odds with what I've said? Is your hard-on for a fight so big that you can't even work out which side you're on?

Stop salivating, read carefully and don't make more of an idiot of yourself than you already are.

Gedanken SG

Alright, seems like i cannot find an appropriate word to bring forth my point. My bad. haha. Can't blame someone who's been drinking quite a bit before replying to Mister Gedanken (pretty infuriating too, he wants me to be an aspiring environmental hygiene manager!)

Yeah, that explains a lot of the tripe you're posting. Back to the toilet bowls with you, and hopefully you'll do a better job of that than of posting here. Just a word of caution - if you trip over yourself in the toilet like you do here, you might fall in and drown, so please do be careful.

dxdx SG

actually, ccas and other what-nots are kind of important in the admission into uni, or rather the admission into the uni's courses. just look how competitive medicine, dentistry and law are. i doubt that mere st As are enough to enter the particular course, and thats alr not counting the interviews and essay tests one has to go through to enter.

similarly, smu also requires individuals to have a particular edge over his/her respective competitors. in fact, smu has the slight tendency to veer away from academic credentials and focus on other aspects of achievements in a person. this ranges from cca to representing singapore to starting a business etc.

its just fking sad that even tho our gov promised us education from young, its merely a foundational one. when it comes to the tetiary level, you're all out on your own in the bloodthirsty cutthroat environment.

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